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Carries and Junglers how do you gank and carry.
03-22-2011 10:30 PM
covacombo
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Post: #1
Carries and Junglers how do you gank and carry.
i wrote a huge essay, looked boring, fuck it.

I have roughly +2000 games played with all accounts, so I am not really a dumb trying to theorycraft.

I play a carry really aggresive at early game, then after mid game, only fight whenever I would get double kill.

Sorry, maybe you won't like it, but it works.
randoms dont get why.

it works with my team who has roughly same stats as me overall in-game.

I have about +350 more wins then losses in normal.

fuck ranked.

tl;dr
i only play carry/jungle with my friends
randoms r dumb
they dont get me
nor do i get them

how do you play as a carry or jungle.
what do you do...



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03-22-2011 11:50 PM
flamedance58
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Post: #2
RE: Carries and Junglers how do you gank and carry.
I can't seem to get the hang of a carry/jungle to the fullest.

For carries like Xin, which I main, I'm typically a bit reckless but there are times where I get quite a few kills and can carry the game with all the DPS on the towers and enemies once fights start.

For jungling I've got issues since it's hard for me to analyze good moments to gank and choosing which lane to do so in. I typically only jungle with Nocturne since he's the most comfortable jungler I own other than WW and he seems to have slid down the ladders lately. For Nocturne it's usually mopping up on fights where an enemy is running and I can pull off a past-the-tower-ult-kill or just use my ult to scare away enemies who might kill an ally.



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03-23-2011 12:29 AM
Silphon
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Post: #3
RE: Carries and Junglers how do you gank and carry.
Carries:

Constant lane pushing, if you're in a solo lane, depending on how well you are with a specific carry (Nocturne is especially good at this) Push the living shit out of the lane, cause the enemy to back early and constantly and force their jungle to come to their aid, and if you're laner is decent, you can more than likely stop their jungle gank, kill him and continue pushing.

In my opinion carries for the most part, are to force enemy jungles to take a break from their jungling essentially ruining their flow, because if their jungle doesn't, knock that tower down ASAP, I do this with Nocturne and usually always have a tower down by 5-6 minute mark, which is why I say Nocturne is a better lane than jungle, there are many issues with his jungle that make him impractical over other champions that are more efficient like Udyr and Warwick.

So pushing pushing is a carries job. If you're not pushing, you're chasing away an enemy carry/jungle and punishing stragglers.


Jungle:

You're sole mission (in my opinion) is to do the following:

Gank the living shit out of the solo lane, but only when you've cleared your jungle unless your solo lane is being pushed, then don't be an idiot and ignore it, that's how you lose towers.

Secondly what a lot of junglers forget is to counter jungle, if possible, some people are slow and or suck at jungling so capitalize on it and make them rage quit.


Most importantly for both types need extreme map awareness. I mean you have to know where to hide and when, predict and caution around common hiding areas as well as keep your team up to date on where the enemy might be, even if you're not sure (same could be said about other classes, but these two are the scouts pretty much)

Granted this is how I treat these roles when I do them, but these are pretty basic for how you should do your job.


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03-23-2011 05:05 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2011 05:25 AM by covacombo.)
covacombo
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Post: #4
RE: Carries and Junglers how do you gank and carry.
(03-23-2011 12:29 AM)Silphon Wrote:  Carries:

Constant lane pushing, if you're in a solo lane, depending on how well you are with a specific carry (Nocturne is especially good at this) Push the living shit out of the lane, cause the enemy to back early and constantly and force their jungle to come to their aid, and if you're laner is decent, you can more than likely stop their jungle gank, kill him and continue pushing.

In my opinion carries for the most part, are to force enemy jungles to take a break from their jungling essentially ruining their flow, because if their jungle doesn't, knock that tower down ASAP, I do this with Nocturne and usually always have a tower down by 5-6 minute mark, which is why I say Nocturne is a better lane than jungle, there are many issues with his jungle that make him impractical over other champions that are more efficient like Udyr and Warwick.

So pushing pushing is a carries job. If you're not pushing, you're chasing away an enemy carry/jungle and punishing stragglers.


Jungle:

You're sole mission (in my opinion) is to do the following:

Gank the living shit out of the solo lane, but only when you've cleared your jungle unless your solo lane is being pushed, then don't be an idiot and ignore it, that's how you lose towers.

Secondly what a lot of junglers forget is to counter jungle, if possible, some people are slow and or suck at jungling so capitalize on it and make them rage quit.


Most importantly for both types need extreme map awareness. I mean you have to know where to hide and when, predict and caution around common hiding areas as well as keep your team up to date on where the enemy might be, even if you're not sure (same could be said about other classes, but these two are the scouts pretty much)

Granted this is how I treat these roles when I do them, but these are pretty basic for how you should do your job.

i find carry more of a champion that needs kill.

maybe because i am too used to DotA.
I used to know chu (legendary korean DotA player, but i really didnt know he was untill i played HoN. i was likeEek ) and play with him, maybe that's the proof that i am not that bad at DotA.

i want to list what i learned from DotA.

1. don't get ganked
2. ward more
3. last hit (the most essential)
4. how to carry
5. how to farm
6. importance of AoE

We, dota players, don't push.

we never do.

We control the flow(?) of creeps(minions) coming in so that you won't push the lane, untill a carry is farmed.

especially carries soloing top/bot. A good carry player never attempts to push the lane since tower near + gank potential = less farming time.

sad thing is LoL lesbians hate this.Confused

Well guess what, yes you can gank 10000 times as you please.
However, I don't want you to gank my lane when i am having fun out farming duo lane and fail ganking.

minions give roughly 15 gold.
turret = 150gold
kill = 200~300

lets do some math.

15 gold x 10 minion kills = 150 gold
so, 3 minion waves for a skilled DotA player = one turret

15 gold x 20minion kills = 300 gold
so it seems like 20 minion kills = a kill
???thought last hitting was not importantDoh


with no intention of trolling, what is your level??
or cuz i think ur 30 and not a mentally challenged person what's your ratio..
'pushing like fuck' isn't really the best idea for carries, in my opnion.
Good jungler will just gank me and randumbs will qq over me ;_;
ofc i can get ward, but my precious farming time is gone


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03-23-2011 10:50 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2011 11:01 AM by Silphon.)
Silphon
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Post: #5
RE: Carries and Junglers how do you gank and carry.
Like I said, its how I play my carries and I've had success with it, even a few times in ranked.

Sure its a good idea to farm non-stop, making the game extremely long, but with champions like Nocturne and Xin, you benefit more, as well as provide better early game positioning for your team, if you them a favor and get down your lane's enemy tower first.

LoL isn't meant to be played like DoTA, there are many tactics that can be useful, but they aren't nearly the same game, mostly because of the champion balance (albeit LoL's balance is very poor) and the skill curve.

Now you said you don't want to be ganked 1000 times until their jungle is fed, but there are champions who are efficient at avoiding ganks as well as pushing hard on lanes, whether you're solo or not. If you don't ward to make sure you know when the gank is coming, of course you're going to be destroyed. Map awareness is key, and I'm not saying you blinding act like a fool and feed the enemy team, but they are called carries for a reason, not farmers. Carries are supposed to give teams positional advantages.

As a Carry, you force the enemy team to change their plans, like how I see it, the less time their jungle is actually jungling, gives my teams jungle more time to steal his mobs as well as keep their jungles level down. Its about communication, if an enemy jungler is in a lane or dead, your jungle should be told and made aware, so they can go in and steal some of their jungle.

Of course the game is better played safe, but you can farm until the game is an hour long, but there honestly is no real fun in that, especially if you're playing kill happy champions.

As for the amount of gold a lane gets over jungle, it honestly depends. There are some champs who have awesome auto-attack animations making it easy to last hit, like Akali and LeBlanc. There are also champions with certain skills making farming a breeze but as well as keeping the enemy team from farming llike Morgana and Nocturne. I've found that I build faster on champions like Nocturne laning than I do in the jungle, and respectively end up ruining early game for other champions by not allowing them to farm. Often when the laning phase is done, the enemies in my lane are underleveled and keep out of fights to farm, while the rest of my team pushes down a lane and kills off their team.

And yes I'm level 30, I'm not mentally challenged, but a lot of people who are coming from DoTA are used to that style of playing being farm it up. That's good and I'm not saying its bad, but LoL allows for more agressive playing and doesn't have a negative effect for it. If you push down a tower first and weaken a second tower, you're doing your team a lot more of a favor than sitting in a lane farming until 20-30 minutes. That's just how I see it, and how I've won. Granted if you don't have a competent team, doesn't matter how many kills you get as a carry, you're more than likely not going to win anyways because of your teams ability to never engage and running away from fights, causing you to have wasted your time putting your team ahead.

I do understand the theory behind controlling minion waves and the enemies ability to farm, and it's helpful if you continue to farm while not letting them, I was a DoTA player myself, but that was years ago, and I was playing HoN for the longest time. But these two games punish aggressive playstyles while LoL encourages it. I don't think its that most PUGs dislike the idea of farming, its just farming often causes slow games and even Riot themselves have stated they want SR to be faster, and this causes what most people tend to do, play aggressive and get the game over faster. Sadly a lot of the time, people are fools and just play aggressive without being smart and cause the game to be short for a bad reason.


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03-26-2011 12:31 PM
Grunghole
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Post: #6
RE: Carries and Junglers how do you gank and carry.
Corva, is everything you say offensive and ignorant or are you just bad at getting your point across?

If you can't play a carry, and you can't play a jungle, what exactly do you play? They're the two most skill-intensive roles in the entire game, which is why 95% of the time you see Ashes fail, and Miss Fortunes do nothing at all. You'll have junglers that don't know when to gank, and carries that play aggresssively early game.

I have a hard time believing that you have played 2000+ games and have played DoTA and are still unable to carry or jungle. Let me break it down for you.

CARRIES: Farm hard early game, stand in the back and poke during teamfights, and go all out during lategame while being protected by their tanks and supports and stuff. It's as difficult as it is because most likely, you're building glass cannon so you'll spend a lot of your time running away and trying to get good positioning while your tanks keep them busy and your supports do whatever they do. When you're at the safe distance, you're kiting your enemies and taking them down hardcore. You're never the first one in, and always the first one out. Ideally, you're being babysat so you can get farm, get kills, and take down entire enemy teams.

JUNGLES: You clear the jungle, and then gank with red buff. That's seriously it. It's not hard unless you're an idiot or your teammates are pushing as hard as they can, in which case you'll either ask them to stop it, or you'll counterjungle. Don't clear your jungle multiple times, don't clear the enemy's jungle (unless you're counterjungling, in which case it's funny but I'm pretty sure that's not a topic for a beginning jungler). Your job is to gank. You need to either get a kill or at least make them back off so whoever's in the lane can do what they need. You're also protecting your solo lanes, giving them relief from pressure, and letting them go b if they need to. You're the roamer, and it's difficult because you just plain need to be better than your enemies. You need to get inside their heads and surprise them, ambush them, be a constant thorn in everybody's side and make them hate you. Junglers are typically fragile but with good offense, so you require the element of surprise and good map awareness to make your presence known.

If you need help jungling, look at Stonewall's videos. If you need help carrying, then you just need to improve your game.


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03-26-2011 06:48 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2011 06:52 PM by covacombo.)
covacombo
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Post: #7
RE: Carries and Junglers how do you gank and carry.
(03-26-2011 12:31 PM)Grunghole Wrote:  Corva, is everything you say offensive and ignorant or are you just bad at getting your point across?

If you can't play a carry, and you can't play a jungle, what exactly do you play? They're the two most skill-intensive roles in the entire game, which is why 95% of the time you see Ashes fail, and Miss Fortunes do nothing at all. You'll have junglers that don't know when to gank, and carries that play aggresssively early game.

I have a hard time believing that you have played 2000+ games and have played DoTA and are still unable to carry or jungle. Let me break it down for you.

CARRIES: Farm hard early game, stand in the back and poke during teamfights, and go all out during lategame while being protected by their tanks and supports and stuff. It's as difficult as it is because most likely, you're building glass cannon so you'll spend a lot of your time running away and trying to get good positioning while your tanks keep them busy and your supports do whatever they do. When you're at the safe distance, you're kiting your enemies and taking them down hardcore. You're never the first one in, and always the first one out. Ideally, you're being babysat so you can get farm, get kills, and take down entire enemy teams.

JUNGLES: You clear the jungle, and then gank with red buff. That's seriously it. It's not hard unless you're an idiot or your teammates are pushing as hard as they can, in which case you'll either ask them to stop it, or you'll counterjungle. Don't clear your jungle multiple times, don't clear the enemy's jungle (unless you're counterjungling, in which case it's funny but I'm pretty sure that's not a topic for a beginning jungler). Your job is to gank. You need to either get a kill or at least make them back off so whoever's in the lane can do what they need. You're also protecting your solo lanes, giving them relief from pressure, and letting them go b if they need to. You're the roamer, and it's difficult because you just plain need to be better than your enemies. You need to get inside their heads and surprise them, ambush them, be a constant thorn in everybody's side and make them hate you. Junglers are typically fragile but with good offense, so you require the element of surprise and good map awareness to make your presence known.

If you need help jungling, look at Stonewall's videos. If you need help carrying, then you just need to improve your game.

??wat?

i did nut say i cant carry.

lol im sorry, i carry everytime.

even in non-elo-hell ranked, i carry(yeah, doesnt mean i play carry, i carry), and jungle.


read more plzzzzzzzz......


anyways, why so much drama

we can play togather and find out whos right :O



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03-26-2011 09:29 PM
Razor
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Post: #8
RE: Carries and Junglers how do you gank and carry.
(03-26-2011 06:48 PM)covacombo Wrote:  ??wat?

i did nut say i cant carry.

lol im sorry, i carry everytime.

even in non-elo-hell ranked, i carry(yeah, doesnt mean i play carry, i carry), and jungle.


read more plzzzzzzzz......


anyways, why so much drama

we can play togather and find out whos right :O

Not going to lie, I had a hard time trying to read this.


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03-26-2011 11:16 PM
TheEagleoftheStars
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Post: #9
RE: Carries and Junglers how do you gank and carry.
If I'm carry, it depends on who I am:

AD Carry: Farm minions and last-hit like a boss
AP Carry: Harass and farm champs grabbing minions in the meantime
Jungler: Ganktastic? Lvl 4 clear and gank with red.
Not so ganktastic? Do a sustained route


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